Source: CNN
AMANPOUR: And we'll be focusing first on Haiti this hour. And later, we'll be discussing Iran. We'll have the heartbreaking story of three different Iranians and the notorious prison that brought them together.
But we start with Haiti, where the dead are piling up, survivors are getting desperate, and time is running out. Joining me now, Sir John Holmes, the U.N.'s emergency relief coordinator, David Rothkopf, a former Clinton administration official and once in charge of trying to bring economic development there, Joel Dreyfuss, whose homeland is Haiti and who is managing editor of the online magazine, "The Root," and here in our New York studios, as well, police commissioner Ray Kelly, who led the international police force in Haiti in the mid-'90s and who's just returned from there.
Welcome, all of you gentlemen. Thank you for being with us.
Can I go first to you? What were you doing just before? And what is the most pressing need right now?
RAYMOND KELLY, FORMER COMMISSIONER, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: President Preval had asked me -- actually, about a year-and-a-half ago -- to go and do an assessment of training needs of the Haitian police. We were particularly focused on training for kidnapping, anti-kidnapping strategies and tactics.
Now, obviously, what we need, I think, still, you've got to get rescue workers in -- in -- in -- the ability to save lives in there. I think there's still an opportunity, even though it's 72 hours, almost 72 hours. I think that's got to be job number one.
Secondly, we need to move those materials that are coming in from the airport into town. It's about five miles for the most part, but it's a tough five miles, as you know. The roads are not good. Perhaps the helicopters from the -- the Carl Vinson are going to be used to do precisely that.
AMANPOUR: Well, I was -- I was going to ask you about that. I can see helicopters on the ground, and I'm wondering why they're not airlifting supplies in or at least the most critically damaged out to the outlying hospitals?
KELLY: Yeah, I -- I don't have the answer to that, but I think also you need to be organized on the ground, be able to receive it, because you'll (inaudible) disorder. It has to be done in an equitable, controlled fashion.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, Sir John, being in charge of the relief effort for the United Nations, trying to coordinate all the NGOs, what is hampering you? We know the roads are down, but is there any way to use the infrastructure that is there and that's coming in right now?
JOHN HOLMES, UNITED NATIONS UNDER-SECRETARY-GENERAL: Well, obviously, every kind of ingenuity is being needed.
[15:10:00]
We have blockages at different points or bottlenecks of different points, the airport coming in, not as many planes as we'd like to get in there because of the -- the landing blockages because of the need to unload, because of lack of fuel. It's happening, but it's happening not as fast as we would like.
We've got to unload it, get it into warehouses, then get it into trucks, then get it to distribution points, and then start to distribute it, as the commissioner says, fairly and equitably without provoking a riot. It's all happening. It's beginning. Food distributions began yesterday. And we'll be continuing and building up in the days to come.
But it's -- it's a big logistical operation. And we're at the classic point of a massive aid operation like this, when there's a huge effort going in from huge numbers of countries and aid organizations, but it's not so visible on the ground, because you -- you can't quite get it there. But we will do it, slowly and surely.
AMANPOUR: Because our reporters have been reporting not just over the first days, but even today and where they are, they can't see food coming, and certainly no heavy equipment yet to get the heavy rubble, the iron off these people.
HOLMES: Well, there are something like 27 search-and-rescue teams now either on the ground or on their way, and that's beginning to make a difference. Of course, with every day that passes, we know that the chances of finding somebody alive diminish, but that effort must continue, and we must continue to try and look after the injured. The medical problems are very severe, as you've been reporting consistently for the last three days.
So we face a lot of challenges, but there's a massive effort going in. It's not as visible on the ground as we would like. We know why people are angry and frustrated. So are we. But, you know, you simply can't get it there. You can't snap your fingers and make it happen just by magic, I'm afraid.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, Joel Dreyfuss of the online magazine "The Root." You are Haitian. You've said that your country has a glorious past, a brutal -- brutal present, and a bleak future. What are you thoughts right now about what can be done?
JOEL DREYFUSS, "THE ROOT": Well, I think the first step, obviously, is to -- is the rescue operation and -- and the emergency needs of the country. But I think once that gets underway -- and I understand it takes time to set up and distribute -- I think you have to start thinking about, how -- how do you rebuild Haiti and put it in a better position?
I don't think any country would be prepared to deal with an earthquake. And, in fact, some of the complaints about supplies to Haiti remind me of the early days of the Katrina disaster, although, obviously, there's a lot more readiness now to help Haiti than there appeared to be with Katrina.
So I think, first, you do -- you have to do the emergency help, but I think the most -- more important long-term thought is, how do you help Haiti get on a firmer footing, with functioning government, a decent emergency services, and so forth?
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask David Rothkopf precisely that. As a former Clinton administration official and, as I said, leading the economic effort to revive Haiti, how do you do that? Can one do that? Is now an opportunity?
DAVID ROTHKOPF, FORMER CLINTON ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well, it's an opportunity because the attention of the world is directed to Haiti once again. And it's an opportunity because all the countries in the world are on the ground.
But there are a lot of obstacles. One obstacle is that right now you've got something close to a non-existent or non-functioning government there. There's no infrastructure. There's no real absorptive capacity. And so you're going to have to strike a real balancing act between a well- coordinated international community that's able to do the heavy lifting and finding a mechanism for making that kind of recovery that was spoken about a Haitian recovery.
I do think there's also another opportunity, and that is we see crises like this, disasters where entire cities or villages are wiped away on a regular basis. And it happened sufficiently frequently that perhaps we can use Port-au-Prince in the future as a -- as a kind of a showcase for the new technologies and new approaches that we can take to make poor communities survive disasters of this sort.
AMANPOUR: All right. You talked about setting an example. You also talked about a functioning government. I want to play you a little part of an interview that I had with Ambassador Joseph earlier this week precisely about the government's ability right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAYMOND JOSEPH, HAITIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: I have not had any contact with any minister, not even my own minister of foreign affairs. I have had contacts with some officials that are government officials, but not at the level of ministers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So that was Ambassador Joseph in Washington saying that because of all the buildings that have been toppled, not just the presidential building, but ministries, parliament, they cannot even make contact with any semblance of government officials. Is that harming and hindering your effort, Sir John?
HOLMES: Well, clearly, that -- that is a problem. Normally speaking, the government would be a major part of the response. In this case, they've -- they've had trouble doing that. I mean, just to take the police, which Commissioner Kelly was talking about, I was told this morning that 300 policemen died in the collapse of the main police commissariat.
AMANPOUR: Haitian police?
HOLMES: Haitian police. So it's not surprising they haven't been able to recover from that blow. But the prime minister, the president are functioning now, and the ministry of the interior. We are setting up coordination arrangements with them.
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It's beginning to happen, but it's very slow. Capacity was very low to start with, and now it's almost non-existent, and that does complicate our task, but that gives us an extra responsibility.
AMANPOUR: Who is stepping in to law enforcement? Is it just the U.N. peacekeepers there?
HOLMES: The U.N. peacekeeping troops also have police there. There were 3,000 troops and police in Port-au-Prince. There's another 4,000 -- 5,000 -- sorry, 6,000 in and around the country who can be brought in to help. So they have primary responsibility for law and order. And so far, it's been reasonably calm, and we're all aware of the risks, of course. And then the U.S. troops arriving will be able to help, if necessary.
AMANPOUR: And, Commissioner Kelly, Sir John talked about the potential for riots if this distribution is not done, as you said, as you both said, equitably. Are you concerned about that or heartened that there haven't really been riots?
KELLY: Yeah, the Haitians are generally law-abiding people. It's really a peaceful country. I think it's gotten a bad reputation for certain outbreaks that -- that did happen.
I think the U.S. troops are going there in significant numbers. They're going to assist the -- the U.N. peacekeeping force. I think it'll be calm. It'll be, you know -- obviously, you know, the people are in -- in desperate straits. But I think everyone will be surprised at just how peaceful and orderly it will be.
AMANPOUR: All right. And when we come back, we're going to ask our panel, who are staying with us, again, develop this idea of, could this be the moment to rethink international development with Haiti setting the example?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:18:49]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): At the prison in downtown Port-au-Prince, the inmates have escaped. The rubble is all that remains.
(on-screen): We'd heard the prison was destroyed. We didn't realize we'd find the door wide open.
(voice-over): Inside, prisoners' possessions are strewn about. Signs of overcrowding are everywhere. This jail was meant to hold some 1,200 inmates, but at the time of the quake, there were more than 4,500.
(on-screen): We're not exactly sure what happened here, but a U.N. source tells us they believe the prisoners actually rioted after the earthquake, took over the facility from the guards, and then were able to escape from a variety of different routes. We found this rope, which has been tied around a post, it -- and then thrown over the side of this prison wall. It goes down about 30 or 40 feet. So, clearly, inmates were using this rope to try to escape. And all along these walls, there's bloody handprints, streaks of blood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: We're back with our guests, Sir John Holmes, David Rothkopf, Joel Dreyfuss, and Ray Kelly.
Let me quickly ask you, because of that report from Anderson, what is the immediate danger, obvious, of 4,500 prisoners, some of them highly dangerous, having escaped?
[15:20:00]
KELLY: Well, obviously, it just compounds the problem. There were some really serious criminals there, but there were also people that shouldn't have been there, and it just underscores the justice system. It's not working.
AMANPOUR: What do you mean?
KELLY: Lots of people that should have gone before a judge just simply never had that -- that opportunity. That was told to me just a week ago. And it's -- it's a chronic problem in -- in the Haitian system of justice.
AMANPOUR: Sir John, we've seen -- obviously, the pictures are showing us, obviously, the devastated parts. Can you give us an idea -- do you have any independent information you can tell us about how much is destroyed, how bad it is?
HOLMES: Well, we had an initial assessment from an aerial view we've seen of -- of the city, and it -- it looks to us if about 30 percent of the buildings are either destroyed or damaged, of the -- of the homes are destroyed or damaged.
In some of the worst affected areas, it's much more than 50 percent. But there are other areas, like the main slum area, if I can call it that, Cite Soleil, which are relatively -- I say relatively -- spared because of their geographical location and maybe the nature of the building. So it's not universal, although the damage is very devastating. And, of course, there are other cities outside Port-au-Prince which are also badly affected.
AMANPOUR: Joel Dreyfuss, it's been said -- and it's a fact -- that the world's poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, at least, Haiti sits right on the doorstep of the world's richest country, the United States. Do you believe the U.S. has a moral obligation and the rest of the world to really rebuild Haiti for the future and not just throw short-term aid and - - and rescue aid at it?
DREYFUSS: I think it's hard to talk about moral obligations in this time when countries are very much out for themselves, in a sense, or -- or concerned about their own national interests. I've always felt American concern about Haiti was more about keeping a flow of refugees from coming to the United States than about an inherent interest in -- in Haiti itself. But that's fine, because at least that gets some attention.
I think the big concern I would have now is that they -- that whatever reconstruction takes place pays attention to what Haitians have to say. And when I say Haitians, I don't mean just a few people in the elite who are English-speaking and get along well with international aid workers and international agencies, but the masses of people in Haiti.
You know, we have -- 90 percent of the population that has very little voice because the government has been for so many years dictatorial, although we have some efforts at democracy today.
And, second, the impact of American policy. One of the reasons Haiti is so overcrowded is the U.S. put a lot of pressure on Haiti to open its markets to food imports from the U.S., and that absolutely destroyed agriculture in Haiti. The Haitian farmers were not able to compete, and that upset a balance that had existed for a long time, and it -- and it added to the -- to the masses of people into the city.
So when the -- when the big power, you know, does something that seems minimal or rational, it often has huge impact.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, David Rothkopf, because I was there in '94 when the U.S. restored -- restored democracy, brought President Aristide back. Ray Kelly was there. There was a sense that there was a chance here for Haiti to have another chance. What happened?
ROTHKOPF: Well, a few things happened. I mean, I sat next to Ray Kelly on the inauguration viewing stand the day that President Aristide was sworn into office, and there was a lot of hope then about him. I think he let the country down. I think we bet on the wrong man with him and, ultimately, it turned out that his associations and his intentions were not the kind that we should have bet on.
I think once we got into a new cycle of sort of political disintegration or weakening, the interests of America shifted. And then, of course, we had an economic crisis. We had 9/11. And the country stopped paying attention to this, so internal problems and external disinterest.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, because there clearly is some kind of conversation building in Washington, counterintuitively, about long-term development, some even trying to suggest that real development could be a vital pillar of national security. Is that serious? I mean, does Washington have an idea that long-term attention and development is a solution?
ROTHKOPF: I think it's very serious right now. Secretary Clinton is leading something called a QDDR, a review of how we do development and diplomacy in the country. There are similar efforts in the White House. There's a real focus in this administration on development, because we realize now that failed states and weak states are a breeding ground for terror, they're a breeding ground for other transnational threats, disease. They're kind of the cracks on the surface of the Earth into which our real problems fall and build.
AMANPOUR: Right.
ROTHKOPF: And so I think there's a recognition that, if we do as we're doing in Haiti and wait until the disaster to fix it, it's much more expensive and dangerous for us all.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask both Sir John and Ray Kelly, I mean, since 2004 when Aristide was overthrown, Rene Preval has been in office, and the U.N. has pretty much been helping to run the country.
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There seemed to be hopeful indicators.
HOLMES: Well, I think we did make some progress with the peacekeeping force there, and they took on some of the criminal gangs in Cite Soleil and elsewhere. They really made it happen. Then, of course, there were more disasters in 2008, when they're hit by hurricanes.
Clearly, there's going to have to be a massive aid effort this time, as last time, and a lot of rebuilding back better (ph). But the key is not to reinforce aid dependency, and the key is to give people jobs. Agriculture is key, and it needs massive development. Other jobs are key. Reforestation is key; otherwise there's just more disasters that will follow on these ones.
So that's the kind of development we need. Former President Clinton has already been engaging on this with the U.N. to try to make this -- this fresh start for Haiti even before this last disaster, and I think we should reinforce those efforts now.
AMANPOUR: Last word, quickly?
KELLY: Absolutely. Jobs is the key. I know former President Clinton and Clinton Global Initiative has been focused on this. President Clinton is talking about 30,000 jobs. And I think that was just -- that move was just in the offing. Now this terrible tragedy has -- has interrupted that, but that's what they need. We don't want to take people unnecessarily from the countryside, but we need massive job development in Port-au-Prince for the most part.
AMANPOUR: We'll be following this, of course. And thank you all for joining us.
CNN's iReport is usually a place to just submit news, but people with missing family and friends in Haiti are now using it to look for earthquake victims, with CNN's help, and you can find that amanpour.com.
And next, as Haiti struggles to survive, a reminder of how some other countries have dealt with earthquake disasters. That's when we return.